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Okay, I want to make better and better stories but I am hitting a pretty heavy wall here which I can't seem to get my head around.

I am trying to make Lovedoll lines, or Mannequin lines - mostly for Genesis 2 and/or Genesis 3.

This issue is, I can't seem to get them to work.

I have tried looking over zbrush tutorials to see if that system would make much help - but HELL that is confusing to me! I have tried using Photoshop but my hand writing drawing skills are pretty much none existant.

So, I am asking for help. Does anyone have any tutorials, or even know someone who will do what is needed?

I think I am going to take a break from trying to do this for a while and move on to something else.

Here is an example of what is going wrong:
TheMannequinLineFailure-01 by Goldendawn69

SeemGuideTest
This was just to make sure the UV and Seem Guide was correct - so I know that isn't the problem.
SeemGuideTest by Goldendawn69
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:iconagearts:
AgeArts Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017
Ah! I love when someone put so much effort into their work like this! Once I tried to start to create a face for one of my comic in blender. I started to learn it from a "quick" 22 minutes video for the eye. Short learning time, huh? I was fighting with it for an hour at the 12th minute always rewinding the video like an idiot like "what did you do? how did you do it? where is that button you pushed?!" :D 
Anyway nice to see that you are so active! Keep it up!

- bela04
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks :)
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:iconcreativeguy59:
creativeguy59 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I guess the question is what are you trying to do it for, I think you use Daz and a lot work can be done texturing through procedural shaders in its material room. I am not to familiar with it as I only started using Daz recently to learn it... I am familiar Poser and how I do things ... some of the work I do is in GIMP or extracting some baseline texture images from FilterForge ... I'd have to look for gen2/gen3 figures but there may be some products out there you can use on Daz...

If I am off base with what your trying to do feel free to tell me and I can refine :) 
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well I am trying to make Mannequin and Love Doll lines on my figures inside Daz3d.

I will put up some of my failed examples so people can see what I am struggling with :)

The issue I am having is ultimately the way in which my attempts at doing textures is just failing big time!

I think I really need to learn how to texture before I try this.
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:iconcreativeguy59:
creativeguy59 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Okay honestly, and I'm having similar fun, it is very hard to do... but once done you can reuse (and I've been told that, I am going to use some lines from a mannequin set (I need to track) to see if I can get it to work... tis how I've studied the problem ... 

But don't beat yourself it is fairly hard I am told by some expert folks :)
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Example Picture is now in the Journal Contents - just added it to the Journal Entry - maybe you can see what I am doing wrong?

This is just a texture - which even that isn't lining up correctly.
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:iconcreativeguy59:
creativeguy59 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
That is intereting, stretching going on there.

Let me think on it see if I can figure it out.
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
In fact I just found the problem!!

I was using transparent background and doing that (not giving it a colour) causes the issue. Not sure why - but the moment I put on a white-background it suddenly started to work!

This has allowed me to at least get a line which is connecting now - however - have issue now where it appears that the bump-map or displacement just can't look "deep enough" to make it look like a cut in the model.

Will continue practicing on it now.
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:iconcreativeguy59:
creativeguy59 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Sweet. Forgot about the transparency problems that can occur, your doing awesome then ;)
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not really - fix one thing and then hit another - so overall this is proving a LOT harder than I hoped. But I have the idea based down, just think I am going to take a break for a moment... I managed to get some really nice renders only to then find out that for some reason the lines were not meeting in the back.... :(

So .... work to do still
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(1 Reply)
:iconlady-quantum:
Lady-Quantum Featured By Owner Edited Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I in fact have both of them - however - both of them do not do Mannequin lines :)
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:iconlady-quantum:
Lady-Quantum Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Ah okie dokie.
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:iconmbirdcz:
MBirdCZ Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
From personal experience - for dolls use bump/normal maps. For mannequins I add the separation lines in post work stage.

Oh and for dolls I have made bump map for V4 only, which is also a reason, why the sequence/comic "The Playground" I have in works is on hold as it uses G3 characters and my mood is simply not in favor of allowing me to sit down and create the doll bumps for this new character as it is using different UV layout.
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks MBirdCZ - the issue I am having is just being unable to get the damn lines to link up and look right. I am hitting a really big artistic/modelling issues I think.

Though it is interesting you do the Mannequin Lines in Post work - so that must mean you are doing it for each scene in Photoshop or something right?
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:iconmagicshoppe:
magicshoppe Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017
Following up what MBirdCZ said, I use GIMP in my photomanips. For mannequin breaks I use a three step process:

Using the path tool, draw curves where the breaks belong (use a separate, blank layer in case you mess up). Using the paintbrush tool set to 1-3 pixels in width (or more depending on the resolution of your render) and black in color, use the stroke path tool to put the color on the layer.

Here's the trick, use the move tool to shift the path in the opposite direction of your light source by 1 pixel (or more depending on resolution, you get a feel for this eventually) and stroke it again with a slightly narrower width paintbrush in WHITE.

Finally, use the blend tool to smooth out any pixelization. (Sometimes I just do this with the stroke path function sometimes I do it by hand and sometimes I do both) You might have to experiment with moving the path direction and distance to find what works for you but the effect of a crevice on the solid surface of the mannequin works when it all comes together well.
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Example Picture is now in the Journal Contents - just added it to the Journal Entry - maybe you can see what I am doing wrong?

This is just a texture - which even that isn't lining up correctly.
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:iconmagicshoppe:
magicshoppe Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017
I don't work in the 3D so I can't help you with rendering. But the point of my tutorial is to point out that it's not just a line. It's supposed to be a break. In 3D, the "proper" thing to do would be to modify the wire frame to put a gap where the breaks are and let the render do the shading. But as I understand it, that isn't as easy as it is to type it. :)
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Nope certainly isn't as easy to do :)

Though I am thinking about if possible - but... I have had some pretty good (okay) effect with Bump Maps - using your idea on the colour of the stroke :) Also using a negative glossy effect around the line so that it doesn't look like it is being impacted by glossyness... and I am ... lets say feeling better.
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Thanks for the pointers here and I will look to see if I can do it against the texture itself instead of just a bumpmap (that might in fact be one of the issues, I am not changing the texture - or using a texture layer) so it might not be rendering correctly because of the lighting.
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:iconmbirdcz:
MBirdCZ Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
As I told you before, for the lines to link up, use wireframe templates, that is the key!

As for mannequins, yes, each image needs to be touched up in Photoshop. But with my experience from the past, where I did hundreds of mannequin photo manipulations I have this "skill" leveled up rather nicely.
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Example Picture is now in the Journal Contents - just added it to the Journal Entry - maybe you can see what I am doing wrong?

This is just a texture - which even that isn't lining up correctly.
Reply
:iconmbirdcz:
MBirdCZ Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
I think it is lining up correctly. It is just that you have a 2D image map that is applied to a 3D object, which means, that on the 2D map you actually do need to compensate for the final 3D shape when you want to make something like a straight line for example - which may be rather frustrating (speaking from experience).

However, why the line you are showing in the "The Line" image and looks OK in the pre-render viewport results in what you are showing as after rendering is quite odd. Maybe it could be file format related?
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
In fact I just found the problem!!

I was using transparent background and doing that (not giving it a colour) causes the issue. Not sure why - but the moment I put on a white-background it suddenly started to work!

This has allowed me to at least get a line which is connecting now - however - have issue now where it appears that the bump-map or displacement just can't look "deep enough" to make it look like a cut in the model.

Will continue practicing on it now.
Reply
:iconmbirdcz:
MBirdCZ Featured By Owner Jan 15, 2017  Hobbyist General Artist
Glad that you found the problem. My personal bet actually was on the alpha channel in the file.

Bump maps will never do the trick as they are 2D and it depends on the lighting of the scene and camera angle for them to show.

Displacement maps could possibly do a better job, because they are actually affecting the geometry itself. But they have issues of their own. For instance for a smooth, thin, mannequin like, separation line, the displacement map would have to be of a very high resolution and as it affects the actual geometry, you would have to create that map very carefully, otherwise it would make not just the indent lines, but also increase/decrease (based on the map) volume of the entire body part you apply the displacement map to.

Normal maps are better than bump maps, because, although they are post processing stuff just like bumps and do not modify the geometry itself, they are actually 3D so they contain information about the bump for all 3 axes and so they work from any angle and in any light conditions.

However, neither bumps or normal maps work very well from close distances. Or, they may, but the closer the camera is, the higher resolution the bump/normal map has to have in order for the image to look good.

That is why I add mannequin separation lines in post work phase... :D
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Well if you look at my latest piece you will see my first attempt at totally 3d Mannequin lines... I think they came out better than I hoped and the lighting doesn't impact that too much - but I have a lot of practice still needed. Firstly the damn lines don't go around the back for some reason - even though the lines are the full size of the torso texture.

Close up's are okay - not great - but still better than I hoped.

The secret I found is that you need to have a negative glossy - which gives the effect that the line is not a part of the skin, but deeper so the glossy effect of the model doesn't show. Before it would just glossy the line.

Also using bump map (HUGE negative amount) and also using a texture (not just the model) using the idea to have the black line off a few pixels from the bump map.

Now I have tried with different lighting and so far it is passable, but again I have to practice some more to make it more detailed and also clean up my lines because they are not very straight (that is proving to be the hardest part right now).

As you will see the torso line is bumpy, and the wrist line is just too think and little too far away from the bump map highlighting, so doesn't look fully like a cut.

sta.sh/013pus9g0dw5
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(1 Reply)
:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Okay thanks for letting me know that I was really getting frustrated that I was unable to do what you were doing - and I felt stupid for some reason.

SOOOOOO I know my skill isn't the same as yours - soooo I am going to continue to see if I can make Mannequin pieces for the Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 models :)

Of course - I am also thinking I have almost no hair left - so given that I might end up looking like a frigging Mannequin before I finish anyway!! :P

Thanks MBirdCZ
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:iconosprey-hawk:
Osprey-Hawk Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017
What about making a bump/normal map?
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Which would be great but I can't get the damn lines linking up and I can't seem to get the lines looking good :(  They look really blocky and don't really follow the model curves etc :(
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:iconosprey-hawk:
Osprey-Hawk Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017
Well, if it looks blocky, then you might not be using the correct resolution.  Also, have you considered using illustrator to use vector lines to nudge everything into place without needing to erase and redraw the lines each time?
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:icongoldendawn69:
Goldendawn69 Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2017  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Not sure what you are meaning by the resolution since I am using the largest size possible.

Example Picture is now in the Journal Contents - just added it to the Journal Entry.
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